Traveller-digest      Thursday, June 26 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1483



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

(Fwd) Re: (Fwd) PE Questions
Re: Space Combat Probabilities
Geonee Post: The Llyrnians (take two) (Long)
TGTSD _again_
re: Task System Revision

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 05:35:55 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: (Fwd) Re: (Fwd) PE Questions

Luke Silburn asked some questions which I forwarded to Stu. Here is 
his response.

Suz


- ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
From:          "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Organization:  Disorganization, Ink.
To:            "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Date:          Wed, 25 Jun 1997 15:47:43 -7
Subject:       Re: (Fwd) PE Questions
Reply-to:      sdollar@goodnet.com
Priority:      normal

On 25 Jun 97 at 6:22, Suzette C. Dollar wrote:

Suz, you can forward my thoughts to the list as you wish.

> This cropped up as I was going through the IRC walkthrough materials.
> The metatasks for infomation gathering about other starsystems mention
> the highest available Survey skill as an asset for achieving the task,
> but gives no mechanic for deriving this stat or any guidelines as to
> what kinds of values might be typical. Ideally, having high levels in
> this stat should involve some kind of sacrifice in the game (I can
> understand that it may have been axed to keep things simple); but a
> couple of sentences of guidance would have been nice.

I can't speak on this one with any great amount of knowledge.  This 
would be a better question for David Burden.  

> Can the designers/playtesters share their thinking behind the Foreign
> Investment costs? I think they are too high, but I'd like some insight
> into why they were set as they have been before I start tinkering with

OK, here was my thinking on it when I did it.  Agree or disagree with 
it as you wish, but here's what I felt factored into it.

First of all, this is truly foreign investment.  This is not a 
foreign aid third world/first world giveaway situation.  It 
represents a situation where corporate interests on World X are 
investing in improvements on World Y.  The cost as reflected includes 
all of the following:

A) Shipment of materials to world X from world Y.
B) Shipment of engineers, architects, scientists, construction 
workers (and their families incidentally, since most of the PE scale 
construction projects would be multi-year affairs).  
The additional cost associated with supporting all of these extra 
workers, and storing/utilizing these extra materials.
C) Transportation costs
D) Incidentals and unforeseen costs
E) A certain amount of equity in (or in many cases, perhaps even 
outright ownership) of the newly constructed assets in question.
F) Development of support network, infrastructure, etc. to 
effectively utilize the development in question.

Why did I go with the formula I did?  

Four reasons:
1) I wanted the costs to reflect equity in the development of World 
Y, not just the raw cost of shipping materials to World Y.  As the 
basis of Traveller is economics, World X has a compelling reason to 
develop World Y only if economics, or to a lesser extent politics 
dictate a pressing need.

2) Play balance.  At a certain point, a larger pocket empire, with 
3-4 HiPop worlds could develop every world in the empire quickly and 
cheaply, without regards to realism if costs were lower, and then 
gobble up his opponents.  

3) A better fit with the Traveller universe.  If it is free and cheap 
to develop worlds within a pocket empire in Year 0, how come every 
world in the Imperium isn't TL 15, high population, etc in year 1100? 
 There has to be one or several compelling economic reasons why every 
world in year 1100 doesn't look like Capital.  I felt the high cost 
of development relative to return in a lot of instances provided a 
compelling reason why.   The relatively high cost makes the pocket 
emperor choose the targets for development more carefully, because he 
can't afford to develop them all.  This is more fitting with what the 
Imperium eventually becomes by year 1100.

4) Playability.  1 of the things I notice about a lot of questions 
regarding why this or that wasn't done with PE, is that these 
questions are asked in isolation.  I wish the system lent itself well 
to that sort of tinkering, but it really doesn't.

The interesting phenomenon that Joe Walsh and I noticed in working on 
PE was that we couldn't tweak one variable in isolation.  There are 
about two dozen independent variables in the economic portion of the 
book, ALL of which were highly interdependent.  We'd tweak something 
minor in the name of realism.  The next thing you knew, we'd 
run the model on Excel, and then we'd have 20 hours worth of 
arguments on IRC over exactly how to proceed in fixing everything 
we'd wrecked in the name of adjusting one variable for the sake of 
realism.  

A prime example of this was the table which translates the Trade 
Classifications into modifiers to the resource roll for the economic 
extension.  I know for a fact that that was the subject of at least 
20 man-hours of development time.  That was one table...now look at 
how many tables were in PE's economic chapters, and you get a good 
idea of how daunting this task really was.  

There came a point where we had to simply stop tinkering with the 
system, and just get it cast in stone in time to be playtested so 
we could meet deadlines.   

> the values. Also, did you consider relating the cost to a PEs highest
> jump rating rather than making it a flat per parsec cost? This would

I considered it, but rejected it for simplicity.  In addition, there 
is a very real cost to shipping all those materials in faster (but 
lower cargo volume) J2-3 ships.  I figured that much of the savings 
would probably be lost in the smaller cargo holds, and greater fuel 
expense.  Not perfect, I admit, but workable.
Stuart L. Dollar                sdollar@goodnet.com
- ---------------------------------------------------
Co-Designer of Products for Marc Miller's Traveller
Including the upcoming release:  Psionics Institutes 
- ----------------------------------------------------
"Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God."
- -Thomas Jefferson


Suzette C. Dollar
#Traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 08:01:49 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Space Combat Probabilities

David J. Golden wrote:

>
>Stepping aside from the religious discussion going on about tasks, I'd like
>to open another can'o'worms--space combat.
>
>Now, I liked BL. I liked the mechanics, I liked the feel, I liked the level
>of detail. For running through a simple combat coming up during a
>roleplaying session, it was a bit too complicated, but not much. Well,
>during the FF&S2 work, some of the fundamentals of BL got shaken up a bit,
>so I decided to sit down and take a hack at rolling my own detailed space
>combat system for t4, with the intent of "collapsing" it down for
>quick'n'dirty as well. I'm a gearhead, so I started with some fundamental
>analysis--what are the rough probabilities of hitting a target at a given
>range.
>
>Well, I've already run into a slight difficulty--the range bands are WAY
>too granular. First estimate of hit probability for a 100Td sphere is 86%
>at 50,000km. The next range band, 500,000km, the hit probability drops WAY
>down to 1% ... that's MUCH to large a drop between range bands ("Hurry up
>and hit him, before he reaches 500kkm!"). Linear, tenth-light-second bands
>work much better.
>
>For those who are interested, and want to discuss creating a detailed
>system, my first cut at the calculations are posted at
[snip]


	David: strangely enough, I've been slowly, in the one or two
uncommitted hours a week I have, been trying to kitbash a few modifications
to RPSCS.  I started out with the following, which assumes a proportional
movement chart rather like StarFleet Battle's.


	Essentially, What the following is is an attempt to render RPSCS
movement a little bit more Newtonian, and add a little bit more granularity
to the resolution; movement and attack/defence gets resolved on the minute
level.  It also tries to incorporate USD Size Rating at several levels (I
knew that had to be good for something :>).  Where I encountered problems
was with resolving damage; the USD weapons rating is, I believe an
aggregate abstraction of the amount of damage the weapon does in a turn.
RPSCS resolves hits and damage once per turn.  I wanted to resolve them
once per minute, but had no clue as to how to unaggregate the hits/damage.
Any suggestions?


	The Movement Chart referred to in the text would look something
like the table below: velocities (in hexes/increments of time) are placed
in Velocity columns, and increments of time in rows; the Caller reads down
the rows for each increment and each player moves his ship counter as each
increment is resolved. This is a crude example of what I'm talking about:

	Velocity Columns
		6	5	4	3	2	1
Increments

1		1	1	1
2		2	2		1
3		3		2		1
4		4	3		2
5		5	4	3
6		6	5	4	3	2	1


	This chart only assumes speeds of up to 6 hexes/increment and only
6 increments/turn, but you get the idea.  The finished version will be able
to handle ludicrously high velocities and be divided into 30 1-minute rows.
The Movement Chart Counters referred to below are simply placed along the
top, on the appropriate Velocity Column.

	Oh yes: I wrote this assuming the use of KB v.2.0, but I'm sure
that any other task system could be adopted.


Darroch's Vaguely Newtonian RPSCS Movement Rules.

"Things in motion tend to remain in motion, things at rest tend to remain
at rest"

1. Movement

1.1 Movement Points: As with RPSCS 0.9, Movement Points are used (MP).  MP
reflect the change in the ship's kinetic energy that its drive is capable
of making in any given turn.  Each ship has one MP per turn for every G of
acceleration it is capable of; thus a 1G ship may spend one MP per turn,
while a 9G Famille Spofulam Crescent-class (the one that's like the
Moonshine but with a big PA gun) will have 9 MP to spend in that turn.  One
MP may be considered to be the amount of energy required to accelerate 1
hex/turn.


1.2 Facing Changes: As with RPSCS 0.9, hex sides are labelled A through F.
There is no MP cost for changing faces in most cases; changing ship's
attitude is done by the ship's attitude control system.

1.2.1 Larger Vessels: Some vessels are so large that they take a
significant portion of a turn to rotate 60 degrees; this will affect the
time they are able to spend boosting and thus their total time
accelerating, therefore reducing their number of MP.  To determine whether
a vessel suffers an MP penalty for facing changes, take the displacement of
the vessel in tons and divide by 5; divide this result by the vessel's
G-rating* and round up; this is the time required to rotate 180 degrees.
Divide this result by 3 to obtain the time required to change a single
facing.  Then, divide 30 (the number of minutes in a turn) by the vessel's
G-rating; this is the amount of time needed to spend an MP.  If the time
required to make any given facing change exceeds 33% of the time required
to spend an MP, the vessel loses an MP for making that facing change.


Example 1: 50Td 6G Fighter:

Time to 180: (50/5)/6=1.666 rounded up to 2.
Time to 60: 2/3, or .666 seconds.
Time per MP: 30/6= 5 minutes.
33% of Time per MP: 99 seconds.

	Thus, a 50 Td 6G fighter suffers no MP penalty for a facing change.

Example 2: 700Td 4G Patrol Vessel:

Time to 180: (700/5)/4=35 seconds.
Time to 60: 35/3= 11.666 rounded up to 12 seconds.
Time per MP: 7.5 minutes.
33% of Time per MP: 148 seconds.

	Thus, this vessel suffers no MP penalties for facing changes either.

Example 3: 5,000 Td 1G Bulk Carrier

Time to 180: (10,000/5)/1= 2,000 seconds.
Time to 60: 2,000/3= 666.666 seconds or 11 minutes.
Time per MP: 30 minutes.
33% of Time per MP: 10 minutes.

	Thus, this vessel will suffer a 1-MP penalty per making a facing
change.  In fact, it's so darn slow and bulky it takes a full turn just to
do a 180.


1.3 Acceleration:  A vessel may accelerate by spending MP.  Acceleration is
along the vector in which the vessel's bow is pointing.  It is announced at
the beginning of each turn.  The effects of the acceleration during the
turn are reflected by moving the vessel's Movement Chart Counters onto the
appropriate Velocity Columns after it has spent each MP.  This movement is
made the minute _after_ the velocity in question has been reached.

Example 4: The 6G fighter above, spending all 6 MP's on accelerating along
Vector A (without any facing changes) from a standing start.  At Minute 6,
it will be moving at 1hex/turn: its Vector 1 Movement Chart Counter is
moved onto the 1 hex/turn Velocity Column.  At Minute 11, its Vector 1
Movement Chart Counter is moved onto the 2 hex/turn Velocity Column.  At
Minute 16, its Vector 1 Movement Chart Counter is moved onto the 3 hex/turn
Velocity Column.  At Minute 21, its Vector 1 Movement Chart Counter is
moved onto the 4 hex/turn Velocity Column.  At Minute 26, its Vector 1
Movement Chart Counter is moved onto the 5 hex/turn Velocity Column.  At
Minute 1 of the next turn, its Vector 1 Movement Chart Counter is moved
onto the 6 hex/turn Velocity Column.  All the while, the Caller has been
instructing the fighter's Pilot when to move.


1.4 Vectors:  The Hex map is split up into 6 Vectors, A through F, which
are plotted from the facings of the same letter off the bottom right hex of
the map.  Thus, Vector A is straight up the map; Vector D is straight down
the map.  Vector B is 60 degrees clockwise from Vector A, and Vector E is
its opposite.  Vector C is 120 degrees clockwise from Vector A, and Vector
F is its opposite.  Each vessel has three Vector Movement Chart Counters;
the Vector 1 Movement Chart Counter represents velocity along Vectors A and
D, the Vector 2 Movement Chart Counter represents velocity along Vectors B
and E, and the Vector 3 Movement Chart Counter represents velocity along
Vectors C and F.

	Acceleration is declared along the Vectors.  Thus, in example 4,
above, the fighter's Pilot would declare that he was spending all 6 MP's
accelerating in Vector A.  This would result in the fighter having a
Velocity of 6 along Vector A at the beginning of the second turn.  This
vessel would then have only one Movement Chart Counter on the Movement
Chart, at Velocity Column 6.

	However, for pressing tactical considerations, he could amend this
declaration partway through the turn; he could make a 60 degree facing
change so his vessel would then be facing along Vector B.  Assuming he made
this change immediately after attaining a 2 hex/turn velocity, he could
spend the remaining 4 MP on accelerating along Vector B.  His velocity
along Vector A would remain with the fighter's Vector 1 Movement Chart
Counter would remain on the Movement Chart on Velocity Column 2, and the
Caller instructing him to move on the appropriate Minutes.  However, by the
end of the turn its Vector 2 Movement Chart Counter would be on Velocity
Column 4, and the fighter would be moving 2 hexes along Vector A and 4
hexes along Vector B.


1.5 Deceleration:  Deceleration works much the same as acceleration; if the
fighter in the above example wished to cancel its motion along Vector A, it
would have to rotate so as to face down Vector D, and spend 2MP and the
time required thrusting along Vector D.  Acceleration would be treated as
above, save that the fighter's Vector 1 Movement Chart Counter would be
moved down to Velocity 1 after the first MP was spent, and down to Velocity
0 after the second was spent.  The fighters only remaining motion,
therefore, would be at 4 hexes/turn along Vector B.


1.6 The Role-Playing in All This: The Pilot's task in flying the ship is
computing vectors and velocities, and pointing the ship in the appropriate
direction, applying the proper amount of thrust, and so forth.  In most
circumstances, as the shipboard computer will be of great assistance,
facing changes, acceleration, and deceleration are simply made with Easy
rolls.  However, stress in combat can take a toll on the pilot's
effectiveness.  These modifiers apply:

Ship is in combat: task becomes Average.
Ship is in combat against superior odds: task becomes Difficult.



1.6.1 Staying in Control: Weapons hits can make life difficult by damaging
attitude control systems, by explosions throwing the ship off its heading,
by lost systems and boiled-off armour shifting the ship's center of
gravity, by ship's atmosphere venting to space, thereby acting as an
unexpected thrust in an odd vector, and so on.  Therefore, the following
rolls must be made whenever the following systems are damaged by (refer to
the damage effects table) enemy fire:

Staying in Control following a hit: a Difficult test of Dex and Piloting,
with the following DM's applying cumulatively:

For points of armour vapourized by a single hit: a negative DM of (number
of points of armour hit/2)-(ship's USD size rating).

Exterior System: a negative DM of 10-(ship's USD size rating) to stay in
control.

Weapon Mount: a negative DM of 12-(ship's USD size rating) to stay in control.

Launch Facility: a negative DM of 14-(ship's USD size rating) to stay in
control.

Weapon Battery: a negative DM of 14-(ship's USD size rating) to stay in
control.

Fuel Tank: a negative DM of 16-(ship's USD size rating) to stay in control.

Maneuver Thruster: a negative DM of 18-(ship's USD size rating) to stay in
control.

Failure on a Staying in Control Roll means that a Restabilization Roll, a
Formidable test of Intelligence and Piloting, must be made in order to
restabilize the ship without loss of an MP.  Spectacular failure on a
Staying in Control Roll means that an MP is lost and the Restabilization
Roll is made at Staggering difficulty and will take 1d6 Minutes to
Restabilize.  Failure on a Restabilization Roll results in a lost MP; the
ship will take 1d6 minutes to Restabilize following a subsequent successful
Restabilization roll.  Spectacular failure results in a lost MP and means
that the ship will take 2d6 minutes to restabilize following a successful
Restabilization Roll at Staggering difficulty.

	While a ship is Destabilized, i.e. tumbling like a shot pigeon,
Weapons Firing Tasks are made with a negative DM of 18-(ship's USD Size
Rating)

* The vessel's G-rating will generally reflect how strongly its structure
is built and hence its ability to withstand centrifugal stresses.

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 15:07:07 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Geonee Post: The Llyrnians (take two) (Long)

        This is the revised design of the Llyrnian minor alien race,
designed to be a "companion race" for adventures with the Geonee. It has
been revised since the first post. Thanks are due to Joseph "Chepe" Locket
and Nick S. Munn for very helpful comments.

        Carlos the Geonee-maker ;-)

================================================================================

The Llyrnians

	One minor alien race plays an important role in the Geonee Confederation.
Its homeworld, Llyrn (0931 D333AA7-A Na Po HiPop  933  F8 VI)  is a cold
world, a satellite of a gas giant orbiting a small star. It's upper crust is
full of huge natural caves. Life appeared on these caves around geothermal
energy sources, and most of the native life forms are subterranean,
cave-bound or tunnel-dwellers.
	Life processes are mostly based on sulfur consumption for energy
production, leaving sulfur-rich waste products. The higher life forms in the
planet, such as the Llyrnians themselves, have in addition a secondary
metabolism which uses oxygen from the atmosphere to convert the waste
products back to organosilicates and sulfur. This latter process produces
SO2 gas as a waste, which is exhaled in order to cool the organism, and is
the reason of the typical brimstone smell of the Llyrnians.
	The Llyrnians are based on a trilateral symmetry, with three "legs" on the
bottom part of a cylindrical "body" from which three "arms" spread. Three
"mouths" open under the arms for feeding purposes. The body is covered by a
tough external coat made of organosilicates, and the arms end in tough
claws. The Llyrnians dig the tunnels "upwards" using all three claws. They
are able to make the arms and claws vibrate in order to loose the rocks.
	The main sensorial organs are three "ears" built into the arms, which give
Llyrnians a broad vibration-perception which makes them able to sense both
vibrations in the rocks in which the tunnels are drilled, and the faint
noises that are transmitted by the very thin atmosphere. Also, three
vibrating membranes on the upper part of the body give them a limited
"sonar" capability.
	The body ends in a "head" which holds the secondary sensorial organs,
basically three breathing orifices which also function as smelling "noses"
and are able to produce noises for communication, and a visual band which
circles the whole head. The vision centers on the infrared part of the spectrum.
		
	The Llyrnians biology is based on a triploid genetic system. They have
three sexes, usually referred to as "Warrior", "Delver", and "Feeder".
Feeders give birth to one or two newborns (almost always of the same sex)
after a gestation period of 112 standard days.
	Genders are specialized. Warriors defend the community, Delvers build the
tunnels and Feeders take care of the children.
	The average weight of a Llyrnian is 60 kilograms for Warriors and Delvers
and 80 for Feeders. The average height is 1.5 meters for the three sexes.
	Special rules: The UPP for Llyrnians is different for the three sexes.
Dwellers: Str= 2D-2, Dex= 2D+1, End= 2D, Int= 2D, Edu= 2D, Soc= 4+1D
Warriors: Str= 2D, Dex= 2D+1, End= 2D, Int= 2D-1, Edu= 2D-2, Soc= 2+1D
Feeders: Str= 2D-2, Dex= 2D-2, End= 6+1D, Int= 2D-2, Edu= 2D-2, Soc= 1D

Society and Culture

	The Llyrnian society is built upon the community, a group ranging between a
few hundreds and ten thousand individuals of the three sexes. The community
leader, always a Delver, has almost absolute powers. The members of the
community instinctively accept its authority.
	The measure of the power of a community is the extent of the tunnels and
caves it controls. So, Delvers are constantly planning new tunnels while
taking care of the stability of already settled ones, while Warriors
perpetually try to capture those belonging to rival communities, while
defending the own settlements.
	The "tunnel fights" are ruthless battles fought in narrow, dark tunnels.
The Warriors rely heavily on their vibration perception, infrared vision and
their sonar sense during the fights.
	The planet has been ruled as a whole by a central authority as long as
historical records exist. This central government takes the form of a
Charismatic Dictatorship in the person of the Supreme Delver, which is
designated by the previous one among the leaders of the most influential
communities. Succession takes place when the Supreme Delver reaches an
advanced age.
	The Supreme Delver does not usually interfere with the fights between the
communities, as long as they do not evolve into large-scale wars through
alliances and coalitions of communities.

History

	The Llyrnians were first contacted in year -9,070 by the neighboring
Geonee. Llyrn was then at TL 3, but the population had already exceeded the
one thousand millions figure.
	The Geonee contacted Llyrn sporadically and helped the Llyrnians to upgrade
their technology, introducing heavy machinery which allowed the Delvers to
build larger and deeper tunnels. Over the following centuries, the Delvers
acquired more and more technical knowledge, and a population explosion occurred.
	In -4,900, the Geonee were defeated by the Vilani and incorporated into the
Ziru Sirka. The Llyrnians, then at TL 7 in environment control and heavy
machinery, experienced a technological regression. Although they were
formally also incorporated into the Ziru Sirka, the few Vilani who ever
ventured into the tunnels never came back, and Llyrn was, for all practical
purposes, interdicted. Geonee historians speculate with the possibility that
some Geonee refugees spent their lives in Llyrn as technical advisors.
	In -2,235, the Nth war between the Solomani and the Vilani made the Geonee
revolt against the Vilani. During the war, thousands of Llyrnians were used
by the Geonee as starship troopers, thanks to an agreement with the Supreme
Delver, in exchange for heavy machinery. The effectiveness of the Llyrnians
in boarding operations and infiltration operations was fearsome. Low-G
adapted and relying in vibration perception, infrared vision, and sonar, the
Llyrnian Warriors easily beat the humans in a fight on the corridors of a
boarded starship, when the light goes off and the artificial gravity fails.
In addition, the Llyrnians' vibrating claws easily drill big holes through
vacc suits, and have some possibility of breaking even combat armor. The
Geonee were able to capture hundreds of Vilani starships thanks to the
Llyrnian troops.
	The Nth war started a tradition of using Llyrnian Warriors as Marines in
Geonee ships.
	In -2,200, the Rule of Man created the Geonee Autonomous Region, which
included the Geonee worlds and Llyrn. Llyrn reached TL 8 and a population of
dozens of thousands of millions.
	In -1,776, the Long Night started. Llyrn fell to TL5 in a few centuries,
but although most tunnels had to be abandoned when the environmental
controls failed, the planet managed to retain a population over ten thousand
of millions.
	In -177, Llyrn was recontacted by the recently founded Second Geonee
Confederation. Geonee technical advisors and heavy machinery were once again
exchanged for Llyrnian Warriors.
	A century later, the Geonee Confederation offered membership to Llyrn, but
the Supreme Delver declined the offer. Nevertheless, in -81, a full
Confederation Embassy was established at Llyrn, and, in year -73, a detailed
commercial treaty was signed. Llyrn slowly became a Client State of the
Geonee Confederation.
	In Year Zero, Llyrn retains, from the commercial point of view, a heavy
dependence from the Geonee Confederation. At TL 10 and with an incredible
population in excess of ninety thousand of millions, the planet is an
excellent market for machinery and agroproducts. On the other hand, Llyrnian
Warriors can be found not only in the Geonee service, but also working for
other planets or corporations. And not only as starship troopers, but also
doing ground work in Low Gravity worlds, for example in Kiimda, the
conquered colony of the Geonee Confederation. Llyrnian Delvers also work in
several worlds with underground environments, for example in the Geonee
world of Dreva.
	The commercial balance of Llyrn is only equilibrated thanks to the
long-term contracts of Warriors and Delvers out of Llyrn, all of which have
to be negotiated through the Supreme Delver or its representatives.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 14:19:02 +0100
From: Nick Munn <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: TGTSD _again_

"Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>:

> It is clear that the MT system must fixed to operate well with T4.

I think this is true.  The basic premises of the T4 task system are 
different from those of MT, and this extends beyond the task system 
proper, to e.g. the combat rules.

This does not mean that an MT-derived system cannot be or is not 
better than T4.1 or KBv2.0.  It does suggest that using an MT-based 
system in the T4 rulebook would require a large, and perhaps 
unfeasible, amount of work.

> Why don't we just fix T4 and be done with it?

That may be the only sensible solution.

> I'm telling you, KBv2.0 is the answer.

We'd noticed you telling us 8-)

Of course, the question could be "What breaks horribly for relatively 
high skill levels?" ;-)

> There is a difference between an Edu 7 and a Edu 8.

Matter of personal taste: is that difference significant?  As Ken 
says, T4.x and derivations imply yes, MT no.


> > What exactly do you define as SS?
[mild snip]
> Yes, it is better than average success, but you shouldn't have a 
> better chance of rolling SS than you do regular success.
> 
> SS is when you roll that near perfect roll.  It should happen only a 
> fraction of the times that you roll regular success or failure.

That is *a* definition, but not the only one.  SS can also mean
"doing something as well as it can be done".  The effect of that is 
that easier tasks are easier to complete perfectly (like high school 
algebra tests for Feynman, as someone said) but the difference 
between perfectly and OK is small (high school kids can get 90%+ on 
algebra tests).  The harder the task, the more scope for "completion 
with complications" -- you fix the drives, but they're never the same 
again, for example.  Spectacular success could be running "as well as 
might be expected", more or less OK despite the damage.

The T4.x definition of SS is the "rare piece of sheer luck" Ken 
describes.

> I think that most would agree on this point.

You may be wrong.  Let's not take a vote, though: save the bandwidth!




> All I see criticising KBv2.0 is the personal preference of too many 
> dice.

And the 60%+ success rate for stat-11, skill-5 characters at *any* 
task difficulty that several people have mentioned isn't a problem?
It is for me, which is why I've come to prefer T4.1 over KBv2.0.

Having said that, a number of the tweaks in and around KBv2.0 would 
improve and adorn T4.1, IMO.

Some of the MT ideas like the time rules, hazardous tasks, careful 
and hasty tasks, etc. are also great ideas which worked in their 
original setting and may well adapt easily to T4.1.


> KBv2.0 doesn't have these problems.  It is simply the best Traveller 
> task system designed to date.

IYNSHO.


> We have all, almost unamimously, agreed that T4.1 must be changed.

I dunno, there's a lot of people who've said they'd *like* it to be 
changed, but that's not the same thing.

> Now, we must all get behind one system to replace it.

I vote for TMM's modification of T4.1, which he will produce having 
had ample chance to consider the merits of other systems.


> I strongly believe that KBv2.0 is the answer.  I believe this so much 
> so that I am offering a challenge.
> 
> If you think you have a better system, then challenge me on it.  Pick 
> a clear game related example and compare your system to KBv2.0.  
> Show me how it is better than KBv2.0.
>
> I want to see, comparing apples to apples, where KBv2.0 is inferior 
> to any system yet proposed for Traveller.

Handgun of some sort, aimed fire at short range (+2 because handgun 
range is short).  Joe Trooper is Dex 9, Handgun-4.  Base totals:

T4.1   13 +2 aimed
KBv2.0 21 +2 aimed

Basic task is Difficult, average roll 9 on 2.5D or 14 on 4D.  He will 
not miss under either system (unless he rolls 3 sixes under KBv2.0).
That's roughly equal.

Just to make life difficult, Joe's aiming at the gloves of a 
BD-wearer, which he can just about damage (perhaps his handgun's a 
Famille Spofulam design).  This makes the "to hit" task Formidable.
Average roll 10.5 on 3D, 17.5 on 5D.  Joe won't miss often in T4.1
(target number 13+2 = 15, max roll 18) or in KBv2.0 (target 21+2 = 
23, max roll 30) tho' a bit more in KBv2.0.

Let's turn the lights out.  At short range, this gives a DM of -6.
We'll also make this a snapfire burst (-1 DM at short).

Target numbers are now T4.1 = 6, KBv2.0 = 14.  Under KBv2.0 Joe will 
hit 50% of the time, whereas he'll be lucky to do so under T4.1 
(17.6%, I make it, or roughly 1/3 the chance.)  I think T4.1 is the 
more realistic here.

Let's take a more extreme example, the sniper Sixten (Dex A, 
rifle-6).  Target numbers are T4.1 16, KBv2.0 28.

Sixten fires his rifle at a target at Medium range (Formidable), in the 
dark (-9 DM) at a target under partial cover (-4 DM) while on the 
move (snapfire, no penalty).

Targets: T4.1 16 - 13 = 3 (barely possible on 3D)
         KBv2.0 28 - 13 = 15 (requires an average of 3/die on 5D)

Again, I think T4.1 is more realistic here.


What this shows is that T4.1 penalties do not transfer directly to 
KBv2.0, and that this can have un-physical effects.  KBv2.0 is not as 
compatible with T4.1 as T4.1 is...

Having said which, they're pretty close for sensible numbers.


The reverse of the above case would be Pete Plod, stat-4 skill-1, 
firing an aimed rifle shot (+4) at a car (+3) at Short range.

T4.1 score 5, +7 = 12, hard to miss on 2.5D (car 20m away, stopped)
KBv2.0 score 7, +7 = 14, 50/50 on 4D

At medium range, Pete still hits over half the time under T4.1, and 
about 25% of the time under KBv2.0.


Norm Normal (skill-2, stat 7) has scores of 9 and 13.  Difficult 
tasks are 2.5D/4D, giving him an average chance of achieving success 
(50:50 ish) under either system.

T4.1 beats KBv2.0 on the extremes and is the same in the middle (I 
was surprised by that!).  KBv2.0 renders the high-stat character less 
superhuman, but only by making the high-skill character extremely 
powerful.


Nick

(Liked MT, now happy with T4.1.)


Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 15:27:02 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: re: Task System Revision

>From: CardSharks@aol.com
(snip 5 difficulties on the Task System)
>Since you have voted for a change in the task system to fix it, rate each of
>these items inorder of importance (1=most important) and don't be afraid to
>put a zero if you think it isn't important.

	Well, here it goes....
        1 (stats/skills).................. 1 (very, very important)
        2,3,4 (SS,SF)................... 0 (don't care, they would have to
change if 1 is applied)
        5 (half die) ....................... 2 (we believe in 2D6...)

        Carlos

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1483
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